I actually love your take on all this. You've put a lot of it far better than I ever could. (I especially love the image of Angel as a Jewish grandmother.) So I don't think our viewpoints are really all that far off. I probably just didn't express it all that well, since I never thought this piece would get so much attention. I mean, I write junk like this all the time, but this is the first time so many people have really turned out to look at it. Go figure.
But.. I guess I saw Angel not so much as never really believing he could redeem himself as the sort of person who talks a negative game, but holds secret hopes in his heart. So S5 felt to me like watching him let those last shreds of hope go, falling deeper and deeper into despair, and it felt like Spike was being held up as a contrast to that. - like you said, because he never really cared about redemption the way Angel did, he never loses hope in the same way. The one thing he does seem to lose hope on, and that did matter to him, was Buffy, thus leading to the slashy brothers vibe we got that year. (Which I also quite enjoyed.) Spike basically seems to just want to belong somewhere (again, that whole "divine fool" thing I was talking about; he makes choices based on his own personal wants and instincts). Angel has higher aspirations as both a hero and a man... but he also spends a lot of brain energy thinking about right and wrong and what moves he should make.... he sets a very high bar for himself. But given his ambiguous actions in the last few eps, I have a hard time viewing Angel as anything but having let at least some of those aspirations go. He takes morally objectionable actions in order to focus on the "big picture," and that's the kind of thing that he used to argue against. Something changed, and to me, it seemed like it was him.
So to me, that last battle felt like a desperation move. I think Angel had stopped feeling he had anything to lose... which kind of freed him, in a way. Likewise, I think Spike and all the other fighters in the alley were free of pretty much anything but that battle - like Wesley, there was nothing else in the world that they either wanted or thought they could reach.
So in one way, Angel was definitely being heroic, in those last moments, by continuing to fight even if it accomplished nothing. Likewise, everyone who stood with him. But I still felt sad that in order to do that, go down fighting, he had to throw away his future and his hope. I can kind of feel happy for the mood of the fighters in that alley, but not the circumstances and attitudes that brought them there... if that made any sense. ; )
Thanks so much for coming by to comment! I've seen your writings in other places and always respected your point of view.
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But.. I guess I saw Angel not so much as never really believing he could redeem himself as the sort of person who talks a negative game, but holds secret hopes in his heart. So S5 felt to me like watching him let those last shreds of hope go, falling deeper and deeper into despair, and it felt like Spike was being held up as a contrast to that. - like you said, because he never really cared about redemption the way Angel did, he never loses hope in the same way. The one thing he does seem to lose hope on, and that did matter to him, was Buffy, thus leading to the slashy brothers vibe we got that year. (Which I also quite enjoyed.) Spike basically seems to just want to belong somewhere (again, that whole "divine fool" thing I was talking about; he makes choices based on his own personal wants and instincts). Angel has higher aspirations as both a hero and a man... but he also spends a lot of brain energy thinking about right and wrong and what moves he should make.... he sets a very high bar for himself. But given his ambiguous actions in the last few eps, I have a hard time viewing Angel as anything but having let at least some of those aspirations go. He takes morally objectionable actions in order to focus on the "big picture," and that's the kind of thing that he used to argue against. Something changed, and to me, it seemed like it was him.
So to me, that last battle felt like a desperation move. I think Angel had stopped feeling he had anything to lose... which kind of freed him, in a way. Likewise, I think Spike and all the other fighters in the alley were free of pretty much anything but that battle - like Wesley, there was nothing else in the world that they either wanted or thought they could reach.
So in one way, Angel was definitely being heroic, in those last moments, by continuing to fight even if it accomplished nothing. Likewise, everyone who stood with him. But I still felt sad that in order to do that, go down fighting, he had to throw away his future and his hope. I can kind of feel happy for the mood of the fighters in that alley, but not the circumstances and attitudes that brought them there... if that made any sense. ; )
Thanks so much for coming by to comment! I've seen your writings in other places and always respected your point of view.