thedeadlyhook: (Dazed by Dizzily)
[personal profile] thedeadlyhook
Thank you for all the lovely birthday wishes! And thanks so much for the virtual milk and cookies, [livejournal.com profile] lyrstzha! And Happy Belated Birthday to you as well - I hope you had a great day!

I've been reading a few first reactions on my flist to the latest Buffy comic (#35), and... wow. I'm sorta speechless. But only sorta.

Can I say that this latest is just reconfirming my impression that the comic has succumbed to the general boy's club-ish atmosphere of comics fandom? Y'know, kind of like what happened in video games, when it became known that girls liked to play Tomb Raider. So then nervous marketing departments had to go into high gear and remind every nervous male player that Lara Croft had big, porn star tits! Thus both reassuring the coveted demographic that they weren't being girly at all by playing a game that girls apparently liked -- hey, who doesn't like tits? -- and incidentally creating such an eye-rolling atmosphere that most of the girls who had inexplicably ventured into what was clearly meant to be their treehouse were motivated to leave.

Not on purporse or anything. Just... because.

Seriously. If I had been asked to sit in, in an editorial capacity, on a meeting to plan out the comics continuation of a popular TV show, penned by its creator, that happened to have a female lead and a large following of adult women, here's what I probably would NOT have advised:

Be sure to include lots of in-jokes to other comic books. And for the love of god, make them specific enough that you'd have to be an honest-to-goodness comic geek who's read comic books since the 1980s to really get them. Because it's always a good idea to alienate a general audience that's coming in from television and may not have experience with (or the best opinion of) comics and their readers -- y'know, leave them with a lasting impression.

Oh, and make sure the art is really cartoony looking, because adult readers who may already feel slightly embarrassed about buying a comic book will feel extra-embarrassed to be seen reading something that looks like it was specifically targeted at kids. And include sex scenes too. Yes, the same artist. No, not ironically.


BTW, for those who don't fit that category of comic book geeks - it so happens that I do - the cover is a parody of X-Men #138, the issue right after the Dark Phoenix saga ended with the death of Jean Grey. (You'll have to Google it: my browser is being old and hinky and won't allow me to upload to Photobucket.) The figure on the cover walking away from the camera is Cyclops, and he's leaving the X-Men, aka the figures in the background, for an extended leave of absence.

How does this fit the current situation in Buffy? Uh, it doesn't. Is Buffy is leaving the team? Did her significant other just die? No. It's just a sight gag for comic geeks, and meaningless, unless you'd like to cite the Lara Croft effect above and call it part of an unconscious attempt to drive away readers who don't get such jokes.

Also, to me, the steampunk spaceship Spike arrives in at the end reminds me a bit of the owlship in Watchmen. (The scene where the ship crashes in the snow in the Antarctic outside Adrian's fortress, specifically - really, aside from some surface detailing, it's even got a similar crash effect here.)

Why? WHO KNOWS!?!?

And finally, wow. Am I SO impressed that, at least judging from the promo art, the final arc of Season 8 penned by JW himself revolves around riffing on Twilight, a series that's actually really popular with teen girls right now. Because nothing says "feminism" like mocking what girls read/watch. Especially if one's own franchise fits that category too, or used to. Girls clearly don't know what they should be enjoying, yes? Maybe they really need some male author to get right on that and tell them.

UGH.

Whatever, comic-book-production-staff-guys. From this point in, never complain about your audience. By now, you've handpicked it.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 05:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
I'm still hanging with the comics, at least through #40... but yeah, this is all bang on, I think.

FWIW: I'm not a comic geek, but I did watch Watchmen (and buy the book). Buffy floating cross-legged is a reference to Dr. Manhattan on Mars, and we get a Rorschach mask in the opening panel to #34. So in this case I think it's actually a theme. There are obvious resonances between the current arc and Watchmen.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 07:23 pm (UTC)
rahirah: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rahirah
Except that so far, it seems that Joss doesn't have the balls to make his protagonists as flawed and messed up as the ones in Watchmen. Adrian Veidt is not presented to the reader as someone who's just a tad misguided, as they seem to be doing with Angel.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
I'm really unclear as to how Angel is being presented at all. He seemed so... drippy and placid in this issue, even while arguing. Buffy just overrides him. Pretty anticlimactic.

And yeah, "flawed" characters who are also nonetheless upheld as somehow in the right no matter what messed-up stuff they might do is called "having your cake and eating it too."

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Not going to argue with you. Meltzer's article today was really quite illuminating as to exactly how shallow the artistic vision here is. The only hope I have left is that Joss let Meltzer have this arc to use as a foil for the next. But honestly, even I can hear myself grasping at straws.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 11:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
I'll take your word for it on the image references; I read the issues in-store, so only the really obvious stuff or things others have scanned and posted tend to stick in my memory.

Watchmen is only of those comics that can inspire me to rant a bit, although I'll try not to. In short, the comic I've always liked, although I've never really agreed with the school of thought that venerates it as the Ultimate!Comic, and the movie I hated. (This is where the rant would typically come in: I felt like the film managed to miss almost all of Moore's points about power usage, along with removing all of his black humor.)

So, I guess if the point of the Twi-sex story has been to lead up to a "is it okay to do something horrible to change the world for the better?" question, ala Watchmen, then I'm afraid I still have questions. In Watchmen I really only had to suspend my disbelief around one insanely rich supervillain pulling Machiavellian strings from his Antarctic fortress. Which, okay. If I can buy it in James Bonds films, I can buy it in Watchmen. But this story brought the universe out to play as a manipulator, without even making it an honest-to-god entity, like you'd see in Doctor Strange, and I feel like there's a missed opportunity there to talk about self-made worlds and authorial fiat that isn't quite covered in the clothes-changing conversation.

Sigh. People really shouldn't reference Watchmen if they're not going to bring the same level of craft to the table.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
One could hope there'd ultimately some riff on Watchmen themes, but as I just said to Rahirah, the latest from Meltzer kind of underscores just how vacuous all of this really is. Apparently we have been offered a beautiful explanation of how the Buffyverse works, and I'm sitting here going huh? What explanation? Very weird. I don't think all of Whedon's works work, but when they fail I can at least understand how or why. Maybe his deal with the evil genius genie expired and he's doing a public Flowers for Algernon dive.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
You have more courage than I to actually read the interviews. Did he really say these issues explained how the Buffyverse works? Ye gods. If that were true, then again with the questions. Why didn't this happen the first time they got it on? And why does evolution now mean a totally different thing than what it actually means? AGHH.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hazel75.livejournal.com
And finally, wow. Am I SO impressed that, at least judging from the promo art, the final arc of Season 8 penned by JW himself revolves around riffing on Twilight, a series that's actually really popular with teen girls right now. Because nothing says "feminism" like mocking what girls read/watch. Especially if one's own franchise fits that category too, or used to. Girls clearly don't know what they should be enjoying, yes? Maybe they really need some male author to get right on that and tell them.

As much as I've ragged on Twilight myself, this really saddens me. Especially, because, from where I'm standing, Joss can't claim any righteousness with regard to his own series at the moment. And he's making himself look very petty, jealous and full of sour grapes.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
I have a hard time seeing the high ground for the Buffyverse in regards to Twilight since its own popularity was pretty much based on the Buffy/Angel 'ship back in the day. And considering how that relationship turned out for Buffy, I'm not sure I'd slam on Bella as being comparatively unempowered, even. It's actually a fascinating comparison, not that I expect to see any insights from the comic.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 06:53 pm (UTC)
ext_15233: (Default)
From: [identity profile] prophecygirrl.livejournal.com
And finally, wow. Am I SO impressed that, at least judging from the promo art, the final arc of Season 8 penned by JW himself revolves around riffing on Twilight, a series that's actually really popular with teen girls right now. Because nothing says "feminism" like mocking what girls read/watch. Especially if one's own franchise fits that category too, or used to. Girls clearly don't know what they should be enjoying, yes? Maybe they really need some male author to get right on that and tell them.

GOD, this makes me want to go hulk!smash. I was outraged before, but only because I perceived JW as wrecking a wonderful 'verse because of sour grapes over Twilight's appeal. I don't like Twilight either, but Of COURSE this is there, too.

Thanks for a post full of insight and sense.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
It just feels like boys having fun mocking that girl stuff, which always lights me up. Not to mention how it makes me feel to specifically turn Buffy into a snickerfest about how dumb girls are - and by "girls" in this case, I suspect we really mean "readers," as in those who are dumb enough to care about Team Edward or Team Jacob (or Team Angel and Team Spike).

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 06:59 pm (UTC)
shapinglight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shapinglight
Apropos of this, I went to my local comic shop today and did a bit of market research. Apparently, 7 out of the 10 female customers who buy stuff regularly are reading Buffy and Comic Shop Boy says several of them were new to comics beforehand. Now, he's got some of them reading other stuff.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Go, Comic Shop Boy!

That's the thing - I do see this comic as an obvious entry point for new readers, but for the most part, I don't think it's taken good advantage of that opportunity. The things that work about Season 8 are mostly things that worked already about Dark Horse's old Buffy comic before JW signed up to write it. Aside from the celebrity appeal, I'm not seeing a particular attempt to show new comics readers what comics can do. Which is sort of sad.

But I do have a comics rec to pass on! The comic version of Pride, Prejudice, and Zombies is hilarious, and even drawn by Cliff Richards, who used to do the Buffy comic back in the old days. It's slay-tastic, and funny - like Buffy speaking Austen.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-09 03:33 pm (UTC)
shapinglight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shapinglight
Thanks for the rec. I'll keep a lookout for that.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-14 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
Oh, thanks for the info! I've been meaning to ask my comics guy, too.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 07:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladypeyton.livejournal.com
Also, to me, the steampunk spaceship Spike arrives in at the end reminds me a bit of the owlship in Watchmen. (The scene where the ship crashes in the snow in the Antarctic outside Adrian's fortress, specifically - really, aside from some surface detailing, it's even got a similar crash effect here.)

Why? WHO KNOWS!?!?


Obviously because Spike is impotent without his leather dust...wait...nevermind.

But TBH, I've been reading comics since the mid 70s and I still have no real idea what's happening in this one.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Ah, the '70s. I miss those comics. And I only recently discovered Tomb of Dracula. Oh yeah, that's the stuff.

I can't even begin to comment on the plot. I can't believe it's being offered seriously. It certainly doesn't read like it.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 03:45 am (UTC)
rahirah: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rahirah
Gene Colan FTW!!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-09 03:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
I adore Colan. I have this urge lately to pull out my old Night Force issues and reread them, even though I doubt I'll understand that story any better no matter how many times I try that. : ) Looked beautiful, tho.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] queenofattolia.livejournal.com
Ah. You're going on the assumption that Whedon actually liked and wrote to please his female television audience. He didn't and never did, and neither did any of his writing staff (well, possibly Espenson, but only under duress).

I've been reading about this comic book drama with amusement, because Whedon has finally fully outed himself as a card-carrying member of that misogynistic boy's club and everyone seems so surprised. To me it's typical Whedon behavior. Ir's obvious that women rejected him constantly before he was rich and famous and he's been trying to even the score ever since.

Edited Date: 2010-05-07 08:29 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Nah, I'm actually not assuming that - it's been pretty clear for some time that romance is the stuff that cause hives for him, considering how often such things were only used as setup for the inevitable misery to follow. And the misery-wallowing was kind of a tip-off too, not to mention the main reason I couldn't make myself even try to give Dollhouse a chance - that story was explicitly designed to make a female protagonist suffer for the audience's amusement. But it grates me to see JW held up as feminist just for having created Buffy in the first place, and making pro-woman statements in interviews, donating to charities, whatever, and yet, there's his work, saying something else altogether.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-10-11 12:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
But it grates me to see JW held up as feminist just for having created Buffy in the first place, and making pro-woman statements in interviews, donating to charities, whatever, and yet, there's his work, saying something else altogether.

THANK YOU.

ETA: When I discovered buffy this year, I wish I'd discovered fandom, specifically, through LJ and not more general online sites like the ATV Club (although Noel Murray's episode reviews were great reads.) I WISH I could have encountered essays like this, so I would have been at least slightly prepared for the jaw-dropping WTF-ery of the whole enterprise.

Forgot to add earlier - here from the link in [livejournal.com profile] elisi's essay.
Edited Date: 2012-10-11 12:31 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 08:32 pm (UTC)
ext_15392: (Default)
From: [identity profile] flake-sake.livejournal.com
Yep, the treehouseanalogy fits perfectly. I'd actually fit into the narrow category of girls that are comic fans as well.
But I read comparatively few US comics, mainly the non mainstream ones, so aside from references to Alan Moore, all their bla was pointless to me, because all those 0815 superheroes make me yawn. Give me a Sandman reference and we can talk comics, Joss!

And I'm really having massive problems with the male gazyness of it all. And with the lameness.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
The thing that gets me is that there are comics designed for the female gaze, but most of them are Japanese and the mainstream American comic market likes to pretend they don't exist. The idea of trying to cater directly to a female audience still feels like a radical one in the U.S. market, and isn't that a sad statement?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-12 01:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tree-of-jessie.livejournal.com
hiya! came here because someone mentioned your post in the comments for this post (http://elisi.livejournal.com/574578.html).

THIS. SO THIS. thank you for writing these things. totally linking a bunch of my friends right now.

on a moderately related note, it occurs to me that you may be a good person to ask about this: can you recommend some non-misogynist mangas a lady should read? i am totally in a manga rut, and made the mistake of buying some bullshit like hot gimmick and oh my god my eye just twitched typing that. i can't keep making these mistakes; it's expensive. the internet recommends some of the stupidest things sometimes. help?

ps: tsukasa is my very favourite in all of lucky star. good work! :>

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-13 03:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Thanks! I realized after this that I hadn't commented myself on [livejournal.com profile] elisi's great post. *facepalm* I've since remedied that.

Hmm, good "non-misogynist manga" recs? That's kind of a tough one. Not because manga tends to be misogynist per se, but as you discovered with Hot Gimmick, sometimes the ol' cultural divide starts coming into play - I've seen lots of strong female characters in manga, but not many I would term feminist in the Western sense. That said, I personally really liked Happy Mania for an interesting depiction of a female lead who's goofed up and imperfect, and yet wholly sympathetic in all the ways the Buffy comic has been failing me. (The ending, tho... eh. Not entirely what I wanted, but... see above notes about the cultural divide.) Also, I could probably make a more specific rec or two if I knew what kind of manga you have liked in past or what sorts of styles you enjoy? There's a big gulf between the likes of Battle Angel and, say, Peach Girl. Which I'd also both recommend, but for different reasons.

ps: I shamefacedly have to admit that I grabbed this icon without even knowing the character or series just because I thought it was cute. So, Lucky Star, eh? Should I watch?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-13 03:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tree-of-jessie.livejournal.com
right, which i get, having been a pretty hardcore anime/manga fan since the early 90s, but still... i find myself less and less able to cope with certain things in my old age, haha.

i actually considered laying out for you some of the mangas i've enjoyed to give you an idea originally, but then i thought it might be more interesting to see what you'd throw at me without any direction. ohh, happy mania! i've been meaning to read that! i saw it at a con this summer (THE ENTIRE RUN!!) and i was both super pumped and mega sad at the same time... i was broke by the time i found it, uhu~ i am a fan of both annos, tho decidedly leaning toward moyoko than hideaki, heh heh. though not for the usual reasons, i think. i actually really enjoyed the weird things he did at the end of karekano. i thought the popsicle stick puppets was an innovative idea for stretching an already exhausted budget. anyway, HATARAKI MAN FOREVER.

you know, i enjoyed both battle angel and peach girl, but i would say i am leaning more toward alita than momo.

lately i've been searching out mostly josei and "mature shojo" titles, and that's been okay for me, i suppose. i just started reading sand chronicles, and i kindof love it! been a longtime fan of nana, though (like most fans) the more recent story elements and 1+ year hiatus (though TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE) have really strained my fandom. kuragehime has me quite tickled. ummm, what else have i really enjoyed?

usagi drop
nodame cantabile (gyabo!)
fruits basket!!!!!!!! haha
hourou musuko
strawberry marshmallow
yotsubato!
bride of the water god (it's manhwa, but still. it's FREAKING GORGEOUS)
blue
utena (though i liked the anime even more!)
suppli
twin spica
saturn apartments
translucent
land of the blindfolded

i am very selective about "gag manga," and i'm not sure i can pinpoint exactly what it is about it that i need to enjoy it. basically i love ichigo marshmallow but i was not crazy about sayonara zetsubou sensei. not sure if that is even close to being helpful, though.

i also really like a lot of the older, super japanese stuff, like urusei yatsura and aquarium

as for anime, i will watch essentially anything put out by SHAFT. they seem to be a favourite to hate on the internet, but i think that they have some really fresh ideas (especially aesthetically), and i am pretty excited about that!

i am also a fiend for anything motoko shinkai produces, because he makes me cry like nobody's business. and he has a real eye for beautiful details.

i am a (still mourning) fan of satoshi kon.

some things that i have really NOT enjoyed lately:

black bird
bokura ga ita
hot gimmick
hana yori dango

is any of this helpful? i can go on (and on, and on... ;> )


and as for lucky star: i enjoyed it. it's a slice of life random "moe-fest" (not a fan of that term, nor the widespread disdain for anything folks decide has a "moe" quality, because i think that those people are looking at things all wrong, but anyway--) gag show. if you like that kind of thing, i'd say absolutely go for it and watch it. it's an early title in what i consider to be a growing line of stories that shine a friendly (instead of hostile... i'm looking at YOU otaku no video) light on contemporary otaku and/or NEET culture. i dig it. it's a fun watch.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 09:04 pm (UTC)
elisi: Edwin and Charles (Thumbs up by renestarko)
From: [personal profile] elisi
Am run off my feet, just wanted to state my support for this post!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 11:15 am (UTC)
elisi: (Girl with a sword by sandy_s)
From: [personal profile] elisi
And you! :)

Also this almost made me choke:

Oh, and make sure the art is really cartoony looking, because adult readers who may already feel slightly embarrassed about buying a comic book will feel extra-embarrassed to be seen reading something that looks like it was specifically targeted at kids. And include sex scenes too. Yes, the same artist. No, not ironically.

'Cause dude... what were they thinking?

Re. the whole Watchmen thing, then I'd not considered that angel before, (despite the Rorschach mask etc), and it only goes to highlight how very bad the writing and plotting are. *shakes head*

(Apparently I still have no great thoughts. It's probably because I can't take it seriously without fuming.)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-09 04:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Just as a guess, because I don't have the issues on hand, I do feel like the Watchmen references are probably just there for flavor, as much as all the other comic-geek jokes are, not so much to actually add anything to the story.

And yeah... I don't think that Jeanty is a bad artist, but he's got a style that is not the one I would've picked for this particular material. Whether the story is meant to be serious or not, I can't tell, because the art makes it look like a parody either way.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-10 05:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] infinitewhale.livejournal.com

Whether the story is meant to be serious or not, I can't tell, because the art makes it look like a parody either way.

Not helped by Chen's covers usually being completely different. It's like, er, which one do you go by?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 09:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jwaneeta.livejournal.com
I saw your Bday coming up on my homepage, but then I spaced. Sorry, and Happy Birthday!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Thanks! I celebrated a day late, but it was fun!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 01:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jwaneeta.livejournal.com
Poor sick one. I hug you on the internets.

I gave up and opened a futon n my studio last night and watched Dante's Cove, and thought of you.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-09 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Hee! How went the Dante's Cove-ige? Have they finally gotten into the Historical Society?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-09 04:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jwaneeta.livejournal.com
I'm still on the parts I've seen before. The Scoggins just oldified that dude.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-07 09:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jwaneeta.livejournal.com
PS: I saw some of that Buffy art in a review and my jaw sagged. What were they thinking?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 12:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
There's some very scary proportions on those figures. I think they're down to maybe four heads tall now. And everyone has such tiny hands.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 01:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jwaneeta.livejournal.com
It's not bad animation art, or edgy whatever art, but you're right: FUCK is it insulting for a new audience. I mean, what the absolute hell.

EDIT AGAIN: neither does it shed glory on comics as an art form for an entirely new audience, which makes my hair prickle.
Edited Date: 2010-05-08 01:28 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-09 04:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
I really think it's just a weird mismatch of art style and story. There are places where the story seems to need to be taken seriously, and places where comedic exaggeration would be fine... only we're only getting the comedic exaggeration, so it's like watching the whole thing being performed in clown noses.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 03:48 am (UTC)
rahirah: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rahirah
It looks to me like Jeanty is one of those artists who, when drawing from photo reference, CANNOT get the proportions right. So all of his characters have enormous heads. What I don't understand is...generally when you step back from the easel, you see the mistake, go "Oh shit," and correct it. With Photoshop, it's super easy to correct. The only thing I can think is that he never steps back.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 04:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jwaneeta.livejournal.com
And he is working why?

Jesus christ I hate the hedgemony.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-08 10:03 am (UTC)
lyr: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyr
You're very welcome. I hope your birthday was good, too!

And you make some very good points about the comics. I am a comic geek girl, and I still won't read it.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-09 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Thanks! I did have fun, although there's never enough cake. : )

I'm actually really saddened by how much I don't like the comic series. I love comics, I loved Buffy, I would love to be able to love it. But... no. It's silly and none sense-making and seems kind of passive-aggressively hostile toward Buffy fans. It's very weird to me.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-05-14 03:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
Oh, great post! I'm one of those new readers to comics actually and it's taken me a long time to wise up about the medium and learn my way. But I've finally become well-versed enough to identify my surroundings and... they ain't good.

It's great to read your perspective as a veteran of the medium. I'm hoping you'll share your thoughts in the coming months. It's wonderful to find someone articulating eloquently on this subject.

Oh! And I thought you might be interested in seeing how Buffy Season 8 is ripping off Watchmen (http://angearia.livejournal.com/138799.html).
Edited Date: 2010-05-14 06:30 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-12-12 03:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] treadingthedark.livejournal.com
Also here from a link from Elisi's brilliant essay.

I really wanted to love the comics, I 've been obsessed with Buffy for more than a decade now. But I didn't.

I didn't even really like them much. But every time Jeanty or Allie would open their mouth my "I didn't really like them much" turned into hatred. I would try to be optimistic, but everything they said just made it worse and worse.

Then the spacefuck happened. I really thought Joss was being sarcastic when he said they would be fucking. This is not my Buffy verse. Hate.

"Maybe his deal with the evil genius genie expired and he's doing a public Flowers for Algernon dive."
Great line!

(no subject)

Date: 2012-10-11 12:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Be sure to include lots of in-jokes to other comic books. And for the love of god, make them specific enough that you'd have to be an honest-to-goodness comic geek who's read comic books since the 1980s to really get them.

Didn't JW do this with the series? Dark Willow was supposed to be Dark Phoenix, and Xander was Scott who-ever; I wondered why rip off another storyline like that. The line between "homage" and "rip-off" can be very thin sometimes but it can be done. The show itself managed it, more than once. But I don't read comics anyway, so I only knew about the rip-off from reading other fans comments, so it meant nothing to be anyway. Any clever in-jokes he meant to insert in that storyline were lost on me, and I suspect on large portions of the audience.

One of the things that bothered me about S6-7, actually, was the increasing number of "obscure" cultural references, mostly from the Trio and then later Andrew. At first it seemed like a mockery of a certain type of fan, but then when Andrew was given more and more importance in S7 (it seemed very important that he be given a specific redemption arc), and the references continue to pile up, I started to resent it as a viewer, as if the show was being taken away from me. And it way - the comics have demonstrated that very clearly. And here I was, thinking this was my treehouse, too.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-10-12 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com
Didn't JW do this with the series? Dark Willow was supposed to be Dark Phoenix, and Xander was Scott who-ever; I wondered why rip off another storyline like that. The line between "homage" and "rip-off" can be very thin sometimes but it can be done. The show itself managed it, more than once.

Well... sort of. A lot of the comics jokes/homages in the series were what I (as a longtime comics fan) might point to as an example of comics-fan poseurs; they usually only half-understood the topic they were trying to homage. E.g., the discussion about whether Spider-Man takes money for saving people's lives. Well, he doesn't, but he DOES make money from taking pictures of himself as Spider-Man, so he does indirectly get income from his powers. So he's actually the last superhero I would've chosen to illustrate the whole protect-the-townspeople-for-free principle; I get the impression that the real reason he was used an example was so that they could use the "action is his reward" quote, from the animated TV series' theme song. So in an effort to be funny, they skipped over the real details.

Ditto with the "Dark Phoenix" homage. In the X-Men story, Dark Phoenix's powers were raging out of control, and she committed suicide rather than let her lose her humanity and destroy everything she loved. (BTW, the Phoenix story itself always struck me as an homage to a classic Star Trek episode, "Where No Man Has Gone Before.") You could argue that some of these themes are present in Willow's story, but IMHO Season 7 never really grappled with or resolved her issues with power - she just suddenly became able to control magic just fine, which kind of misses the whole point that humans aren't cut out be gods because we have too many weaknesses and passions. (And never mind how the drug metaphor fit into all this.)

when Andrew was given more and more importance in S7 (it seemed very important that he be given a specific redemption arc), and the references continue to pile up, I started to resent it as a viewer, as if the show was being taken away from me.

Exactly. And as the kind of geek they were presumably trying to simulate with Andrew, I actually felt more mocked than courted. And the comics only magnified this effect. Sigh...
Edited Date: 2012-10-12 06:50 pm (UTC)

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