The Living and Dying End

[thedeadlyhook]

I thought about creating a filter for this, but... whatevs. If I get too much grief from it, I'll just flock it.

If you like the Buffy Season 8 comic, you won't find joy here.



I browsed the issue in the comic store. Which means I read it without buying. Snorted and shook my head when I was finished, and put it back.

My impression? If it hadn't been the last issue of a 4-year arc, it would only have been uneventful. I was annoyed by the decision to move Buffy (and Xander and Dawn) to San Francisco, because it always irks to see poorly rendered real-world geography, and even moreso where I happen to live. (Frex: the locale for the conversation between Buffy and Willow takes place on a hilltop-by-a-bridge that seems to combine elements of the Embarcadero, Dolores Park, Fort Mason, and the Marin Headlands, without being quite accurate to any of them.) But hey! San Francisco means you can make jokes about gay men, and maybe give Buffy a reason not to indulge in any romances while she patrols this particular 'hood, eh? Whatevs.

I did strike me, however, that this would've made a better first issue of that 4-year arc, with the rest of the story revealed in Memento-esque flashback. That way, we'd might've been prepared to cut Buffy some slack while she behaved in an OOC way, because we'd have already known the ending. Smallville used to make great use of this technique in its early years, playing the friendship Clark and Lex as a tragedy-yet-to-happen. Pathos! Of course, that's before the show lost me by overplaying the Clark/Lana relationship and maintaining a worshipful attiude toward Clark even when he behaved like a total tool. Because, y'know, he's gonna grow up to be Superman.

But that's, of course, armchair quarterbacking, and also doing it that way would've required the plot to have been nailed down solid ahead of time, which doesn't seem to be Whedon's working method.

I would've left it at that until I saw shapinglight's post and the letter.

First, a confession: I don't always read the letter's page in comics. Especially not the Buffy comics - a recent re-read of some issues I'd collected before this whole Season 8 debacle started up remined me that yes, Scott Allie has always had that same predeliction for printing inflammatory mail, and frankly, I don't need that much stomach acid with my leisure time reading. So I hadn't read Whedon's personal message to fans when I read the comic in store.

Now I have.

And I gotta tell you, people, that aw,-shucks Klass Klown act Whedon pulls whenever he comes under criticism makes me see red, red, red! Because it always comes down to the same message, the same one that's probably worked for him since high school: Look at me, I'm funny! I'm cute! You're not really mad at me, are you? Why are you taking all this so seriously?

Do you have Serious Questions, gentle reader? You will never receive sincere answers. In fact, your concerns will always be made light of. Any anger will be, in a jokey sort of way, demeaned and dismissed as no fun.

And you know what? That's exactly the same as what we've given in issue 40.

'Cause Buffy tried her best. She did! She made mistakes, sure, but she meant well. Everyone who truly cares about her knows that, and they forgive her. For, you know, whatever! Whatever was wrong. The only people who don't forgive her are hateful villains who try to stab her in the heart! But she'll just have to muddle on, with the support of those who really truly love her in a world that's filled with evil, humorless villains.

There you go. Issue 40 is our roadmap, the readers. It shows us the way. Buffy blames herself more than we ever could, don't you know that? Don't you feel sorry for her? Don't you want to give her (or Joss) another chance?

And our poster child, dear readers, ironically, is Spike. Who can critique her with amusing snark, but can be also reminded that he was never really invited to do so, and if he doesn't like that, can just get in his ship with his yes-man insect crew and go.

But you and I and everyone knows that he's love's bitch. He'll be back.

Will you?

Comments

[jwaneeta.livejournal.com]

It's very depressing to see the deterioration of a great work. I makes me see red because did it have to happen in comics? REALLY?!

Do you have Serious Questions, gentle reader? You will never receive sincere answers

Oh, this from the man who, upon being advised that graduate programs were studying BTVS replied: "Yeah, I really hate it when people take my work seriously."

Ah, fuck the whole thing. It's like a Hollywood Morality Tale.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Oh, this from the man who, upon being advised that graduate programs were studying BTVS replied: "Yeah, I really hate it when people take my work seriously."

Yep, there it is again, the jokeyness that apparently makes such a great duck blind. *bangs head*

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Hee! You make many of the same points that I did re: San Francisco. It just looks weird. I'd think there would be ample reference photos on the web, wouldn't you?

http://rebcake.livejournal.com/31932.html

I do like your idea of having the whole thing told as a flashback. Though I'd prefer it to be a strange fever dream, even if that is a huge, flopping cop out. Couldn't flop much worse than what we got.

Thanks for posting. I'll get you some comments on The Center, soonish!

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Whoa, color me clueless, but I had no idea you were a local! Hey there, fellow San Franner!

And yay, thank you ! I look forward to your comments!

(I'd actually predicted the fever dream/imaginary story as a viable ending to the first arc of this saga, but apparently, it was supposed to be "epic." Sigh.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

And I gotta tell you, people, that aw,-shucks Klass Klown act Whedon pulls whenever he comes under criticism makes me see red, red, red! Because it always comes down to the same message, the same one that's probably worked for him since high school: Look at me, I'm funny! I'm cute! You're not really mad at me, are you?

This!

Joss, you're a middle aged multi-millionaire who was given a free hand to do whatever the hell you wanted and this steaming pile of nonsensical (and yet somehow offensive) crap that you repeatedly bailed on is what you produced.

No. This isn't cute or endearing.

And Spike. Sheesh. I'm waiting until we hear "You can't be angry with what she did. Spike isn't!"

Yeah, well, they don't call him 'fool for love' for nothing.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Joss, you're a middle aged multi-millionaire

Yes! I really don't enjoy having to make assumptions about an author when I'm viewing/reading a work - and frankly, if it's well done, I typically don't have to - but where the frilly heck did he get his apparently bleaker than bleak view of the universe from, and why does it seem to require quite so much uncritical admiration? Judging strictly from his works, mind you, which seem pretty heavily populated by heroes-who-are-always-right-just-because.

No. Not cute.

[silverusagi]

I have questions, because I'm morbidly curious. So, they destroy all magic in the world, right? All the Slayers are regular again? Is Buffy still a Slayer?

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Buffy's definitely still a Slayer. Probably back to the only, although maybe Faith is still active too? Not sure. I confess I'm not sure how they're working the logic with the others, because I only read it in the store, and don't have the issue here to check - although given the last few issues I've been able to pore over at length, I'm not sure even that would've helped. : (

[quinara]

And I gotta tell you, people, that aw,-shucks Klass Klown act Whedon pulls whenever he comes under criticism makes me see red, red, red! Because it always comes down to the same message, the same one that's probably worked for him since high school: Look at me, I'm funny! I'm cute! You're not really mad at me, are you? Why are you taking all this so seriously?

Yeah, I can't stand that bullshit. It's why I can't listen to his commentaries, because they usually have the same thrust, in a distorted way, and it pisses me off.

Though I do feel narked enough to point out, that if San Fran at least looks like a conglomeration of places that really exist, then it's doing a damn sight better than Europe ever managed...

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Well, possibly finding picture reference of Europe requires you to know something about what you're looking for, whereas I'm willing to be all the San Francisco images we saw in the comic could be pretty easily connected to a front page Google search. Standard postcard stuff.

It's why I can't listen to his commentaries, because they usually have the same thrust

I can't either. I've never heard the "Chosen" commentary. Don't want to. I've seen him live on panels at Comic-Con a few times, though, and it's all jokey stuff mixed with marketing speak, just like the letter. It didn't used to bother me as much, but back then you at least had the actors to distract.

[ruuger]

Look at me, I'm funny! I'm cute! You're not really mad at me, are you? Why are you taking all this so seriously?

Yes, this! I may sound like a broken record for always bringing this up, but I seriously lost a lot of respect for Joss when there was a discussion on Whedonesque about the wardrobe of women on Dollhouse, and he decided to drop by to comment on how silly it is to argue about shoes - he just likes to put pretty clothes on his girls LOL!

Argh!

It's always the same: he deflects all criticism with some clever joke, making people who criticise him look like humourless bores and prompting his fans to praise him for his wit. He's clearly a smart guy, but sometimes I just want to shake him and tell him to just be serious for a moment!

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I seriously lost a lot of respect for Joss when there was a discussion on Whedonesque about the wardrobe of women on Dollhouse, and he decided to drop by to comment on how silly it is to argue about shoes - he just likes to put pretty clothes on his girls LOL!

So clothes don't mean anything, huh? Dismissive much?

Ggender issues are at such a creepy place right now. No one feels the need to be "politically correct" anymore, because either they think that's crap or that they're the "good guys" and don't need to police their own behavior. So if you try drawing someone's attention to the fact they're being a sexist asshat, or at least exhibiting all the signs of being one whether they intended it or not, the response is exactly the same - OMG, you're such a humorless frowny face party pooper! Don't you know other countries have it worse? What's the big deal, anyway?

I fear for the future, I truly do.

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

See, this is exactly why I live in the world of fanfiction. You know, the one that ignores the comics storyline.

Also, yes to everything you said.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Hi there! *waves*

Y'know, I wish I could just stay happy with the fanfic world, and ignore all this, but it's gotten hard. In the larger world, it seems like what BtVS truly accomplished was to convince Hollywood types that the template for "heroine" in a TV series is fragile, angsty, and emotionally damaged. Oh, and hot. Because I keep seeing that same character, over and over again.

The butt-kicking part? Not so much. Not without the fragile, and the angsty, and.... gaaaaah.

[caliente-uk.livejournal.com]

And I gotta tell you, people, that aw,-shucks Klass Klown act Whedon pulls whenever he comes under criticism makes me see red, red, red! Because it always comes down to the same message, the same one that's probably worked for him since high school: Look at me, I'm funny! I'm cute! You're not really mad at me, are you? Why are you taking all this so seriously?

Yes, this!

It makes me sad to see the show I loved reduced to the shambles that is S8.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

That is the sad thing out of all this: it's tainting our enjoyment of the original show. Because we've seen this now, and we can't unsee it.

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I tend to avoid everything that is tied to the comics but I was curious about your reactions , and this post is made of win.(Well , if we can still smile after all the mess that was season 8 and now Joss 's letter to the fans )
Anyway, in total agreement on what you wrote .:)

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I try to smile, but it's really all very sad-making.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I have almost no idea what you all are talking about (I've read none of the comics), but I'm enjoying the discussion/criticism of Joss. :) I still love 'Buffy' and 'Angel' and feel Joss contributed to some great TV, but I never saw him as awesome or brilliant as he saw himself. ;) And rewatching 'Angel' right now, the man has issues and it's frustrating that a) he won't admit to it and b) good ideas have to suffer for it.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Caveat: I kind of hate having to speculate about author motivations rather than being able to talk about fiction in-story, because it's usually a sign of major fail, aside from the part where I have to make guesses about people and situations I don't personally know... but it's also kind of fascinating to me as someone who's trying to figure out the process from a creative end.

So on that note, as best as I've been able to suss out, JW's working method possibly looks something like this:

1. No real plot, just an outline.
2. Details, schmetails. Other people will fill that stuff in.
3. Brilliant ending that ties it all together: TK.
4. Liberally apply snappy dialogue as spackle.
5. Sit back and wait for audience to go nuts with commentary and analysis.

Good ideas may indeed be found within, but in a pinch, the easy-to-reach shelf of emo-drama (sadly well-stocked with sexist cliches) will apparently serve just fine if not.

*headdesk*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I like the comics, but I like your idea to tell the story in flashbacks even more!

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It just struck me that this is definitely a case where you could salvage a lot by adjusting the structure to take the audience's reactions into account, and make that part of what keeps you coming back to read more.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

'Cause Buffy tried her best. She did! She made mistakes, sure, but she meant well. Everyone who truly cares about her knows that, and they forgive her. For, you know, whatever! Whatever was wrong. The only people who don't forgive her are hateful villains who try to stab her in the heart! But she'll just have to muddle on, with the support of those who really truly love her in a world that's filled with evil, humorless villains.

There you go. Issue 40 is our roadmap, the readers. It shows us the way. Buffy blames herself more than we ever could, don't you know that? Don't you feel sorry for her? Don't you want to give her (or Joss) another chance?

And our poster child, dear readers, ironically, is Spike. Who can critique her with amusing snark, but can be also reminded that he was never really invited to do so, and if he doesn't like that, can just get in his ship with his yes-man insect crew and go.

BRILLIANT.

That is all.

Thanks for your review. I hope it remains unlocked (there's so much locking going on these days with the comics...oy), cause it's awesome.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Although, all things being equal, I'd prefer not to have to point out that to BtVS fans that they've just been subjected to an issue-length belittlement of any criticisms they might have. It's beyond depressing.

[rahirah]

God, I hope not. Ideally, I will be a mensch and finish up my WIPs, and then I will be out of this fandom forever.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

This whole thing makes me so sad. And worse, I get the feel that for those doing it, it's a fun thing. Like, so what if some chicks are angry.

I do hope you finish your WIPs for my own selfish sake, but it shouldn't be a forced thing. That never works well. (Also, I can hardly throw stones with all that I've left unfinished.)

[herself_nyc]

I have up on the comics ages ago but reading this I'm glad I did because even without knowing all the details I am INFURIATED. Even though I don't write and barely read fic anymore I am still sailing on the S/B ship. Full steam ahead!

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

It really is interesting how the Spike/Buffy relationship has a completely different set of associations for so many viewers of the show than it apparently had for its own creator. It's like this whole universe (or universes, since there's hardly one version, even in fanfic) that only ever existed in the fans' minds. Historically, I feel like there must be other examples of this phenomenon, but I can't think of any others right now.

[elisi]

I'm too tired to say anything except I agree with this post very much! *applauds*

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Thanks! We sadly share opinions on how not like the Buffy we'd once loved this is. Sigh...

[next_to_normal]

There you go. Issue 40 is our roadmap, the readers. It shows us the way. Buffy blames herself more than we ever could, don't you know that? Don't you feel sorry for her? Don't you want to give her (or Joss) another chance?

And our poster child, dear readers, ironically, is Spike. Who can critique her with amusing snark, but can be also reminded that he was never really invited to do so, and if he doesn't like that, can just get in his ship with his yes-man insect crew and go.

Ugh. I didn't think I could possibly hate this more than I already did, but that interpretation just did it. I am so sick of everything Joss has to say.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Sorry about that. That's the one thing that keeps me from posting about this more than I do, the not wanting to make it worse for people. : (

But... gah! I just couldn't sit back and say nothing after reading that. I've seen that tactic used waaaay too often to try to defuse anger in women, the hand-patting oh-little-lady-just-calm-down thing. And it scared me to read some commentaries and actually see it sort of working.

No, people! That was not a friendly letter! It was "shut up, complainers!" done up in cutesy, boyish gloss. Once you filter out the marketing language and eye-batting charm, there's nothing else there.

[drakontaskyria.livejournal.com]

Interesting comments. I never read the comics and now I'm glad I didn't. The majority of opinions seem overwhelmingly negative. I'll stick with the fanfic.

Joss, as my creators do, has a blind spot the size of the Grand Canyon. This goes all the way back to putting Marti (and her relationship issues) in charge and the resulting SR scene. Sometimes you need to listen to the criticism of others because you're not seeing the problem yourself. Of course, sometimes you just don't WANT to see the problem. I'll be forever grateful to Joss for creating the Buffyverse, but afterwards...

The 'vibe' between Spike and Buffy was always there - I'm sure it was unintentional at first, but the fans picked up on it in oh, so many ways. Unfortunately for Spuffy fans, Angel was the real 'golden-haired' child in the verse and they made sure that Spike could never compete. Buffy and Angel said good-bye so many damn times that it was no wonder even die-hard Angel fans didn't vomit.

And that was another knock on Buffy's head - the fact that he didn't let her grow and consider Angel as just first love and get on with her life. Instead, he threw a sop to the very irritating 'There will never be anything except Bangel' fans. I think I have a permanent indentation on my forehead from banging it on the desk every time I read something to that effect.

Anyway, sorry for blathering on - thanks for the interesting commentary.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I think that's the weirdest thing about Spuffy in hindsight, the way it seemed to develop organically under its own power. And the organic trajectories are so obvious that when the writers began to step in and consciously try to steer it, it was like suddenly seeing the puppeteering strings where before they had been much closer to invisible. Or at least that was my experience.

If I were really going to get finger-pointy, I would put a lot of this particular car-wreck down to the current vogue for turning comics editors into PR agents rather than story editors. From what saw print, I really can't see evidence that anyone, at any point in this process raised a hand to point out where the story didn't make sense or fit with previous continuity - or if they did, they were clearly ignored. And that's just bizarre to me, because I grew up reading comics that had iron-fisted editorial departments, and it showed in the consistency of the product - good story or bad, everything was required to be in within well-defined parameters of character and Comics Code Authority rules. It often seems to me that when comics "grew up" in the '80s and starting getting looser with those rules that they also forgot a good part of what makes stories work in the first place - characters you can recognize from issue to issue.

[yourlibrarian]

I did strike me, however, that this would've made a better first issue of that 4-year arc, with the rest of the story revealed in Memento-esque flashback. That way, we'd might've been prepared to cut Buffy some slack while she behaved in an OOC way, because we'd have already known the ending. Smallville used to make great use of this technique in its early years, playing the friendship Clark and Lex as a tragedy-yet-to-happen. Pathos!

Nice insight -- that was my favorite aspect of the early Smallville Unfortunately the poor writing could not keep me around but that was a great decision and it gave lie to the idea that prequels can never have the impact of the original story.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I did like the beginnings of Smallville. It managed to find a structural way to add depth to Superman's character and the rivalry with Lex. Which, not an easy thing, and one of the very few examples of a prequel to pull that trick off. (In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of another, which makes me give the initial conceit of the series even more credit.)

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

Good discussion. I appreciate reading all the different opinions. I really hope the comic doesn't cause a mass exodus of fic writers. I mean I get it, when 34 first came out I couldn't read or watch the show for a while.
I came back, with the help of a few beloved long Spuffy fics. It will break my heart if these stop being written completely!

Season 8 has become just another fic to me. A shitty one that I wouldn't have finished or given another thought to. Canon Schmanon as they say.
Unfortunately I still follow, it's like a trainwreck and I can't look away, but I have to deny its canonness if I still want to be a Buffy fan.

[drakontaskyria.livejournal.com]

I usually stay with things until the bitter end. Hey, I stayed with X-Files until the end AND saw the second movie - more than once. In this case, however, I knew that they'd crap all over Spike in the comics and so I didn't bother - and not being able to afford it helped steel my resolve. :-) I know that's why I quit keeping track of the novelizations -it was all Bangel and Senior year. They seemed afraid to deal with Spike.

Anyway, I ignore canon when I absolutely hate it and use it when I agree with it.

[simplefangirl.livejournal.com]

Great review....
I have continued getting the comics so that I would have the complete set, (my OCD kicking in) but what a sad waste of money and time. The grin left my face at around issue 6 or 7 and never returned. To say there are story lines or plots is exaggeration. And I have a feeling that if any editor or writer raised a hand to point that out to Joss he got the passive-aggressive, "Come on, we're just havin' fun here, why so serious" routine and things continued on in their bull-in-a-china-shop way.
It just makes me infuriated and frustrated.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. Although I got off the train with the comics even earlier, like issue #2, because I was so disturbed by how the new Slayers were being handled, as utterly faceless grunt army recruits. Say what to the empowerment?

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

that aw,-shucks Klass Klown act Whedon pulls whenever he comes under criticism makes me see red, red, red! Because it always comes down to the same message, the same one that's probably worked for him since high school: Look at me, I'm funny! I'm cute! You're not really mad at me, are you? Why are you taking all this so seriously?

Do you have Serious Questions, gentle reader? You will never receive sincere answers. In fact, your concerns will always be made light of. Any anger will be, in a jokey sort of way, demeaned and dismissed as no fun.

Heh. My brother, who was a big Firefly fan but has otherwise not gotten into anything else Whedon was asking me yesterday why a lot of Whedonites have a hard time admitting anything the man does might be flawed. I told him I thought it was because Whedon makes it clear that if you criticize his work, you're a sad-sack poopyhead who has no sense of humor and probably thinks Jersey Shore is great TV. Kind of a fucked-up sour grapes thing.

One positive thing to come out of the whole S8 debacle: My bitterness towards Whedon has made me move past/forgive my bitterness towards Chris Carter. I'm now loving TXF again (except for S9 and Moronica which I'll never forgive -- just ignore).

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think it's time to revisit The X-Files. I never made it to the end of that series (it lost me pretty hugely when CC couldn't even remember whether the government was actually aware of the existence of aliens or not for the length of a two-hour movie), but I appreciated the attempts at being scientific and rational, which I sure don't see here. (And I certainly don't remember being actively mocked as an audience member for expecting it!)

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

Buffy blames herself more than we ever could

Not quite: there were a bunch of slayers dead in the fight, also those 206 due to slayer hate, haven't seen a mention of those. It's just how some guys predicted: she'll blame herself for wrong reasons.

Oh, I'll be back. I found out that it's nice to mock it.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what she's meant to be blaming herself for. That part's not specified, exactly.

I'm not sure I can find enough pleasure in the mocking from here on in. It's just sad. : (

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to wish you an early "Happy Birthday!" in case I don't get a chance to go online tomorrow. I wish you all the best and many happy returns of the day.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I'm sorry to have been so absent from LJ. The ol' real life's been... distracting of late.