The Pain That I Feel...

[thedeadlyhook]

This grew out of a response I began writing to azdak on the previous post, as a continuation of the discussion there, but it got long. We'd begun talking about that final Spike/Buffy moment in "Chosen," the "I love you" moment, and the validity of how it was presented, and I had a number of emotional things to say there.

This was the original quotation that got me writing:

(azdak says)
There are a lot of things about Chosen that I dislike, but the Spike/Buffy moment isn't one of them. I'm sure it helps that I didn't feel jerked about by the relationship prior to that point (and I didn't feel that it was inconsistent in S6 either), so I didn't get that 'So now I'm supposed to believe she loves him?' reaction. It seems to me that prior to S7 Buffy's feelings for Spike were always stronger than she was prepared to admit (even to herself), that the AR obviously throws a huge wrench in the works, and that in S7 she does, indeed, care about him more than anyone else, without this necessarily implying that he's the one she wants to be with for the rest of her life. She loves him, but not in the way he wants, or not enough. She's incredibly proud of him, and she trusts him (beyond the point where she's entirely rational about it - see the whole unchaining him while he's still triggered argument), she believes he can truly become a good man, and all of that is love, plus there's sexual attraction in there as well; but if it came down to a straightforward choice between spending her life with Spike or with Angel, I don't think she'd choose Spike. Doesn't mean he isn't in her heart; it's perfectly possible to love two men, even if you love one more than the other. I do agree, though, that that goodbye is far more about Spike than it is about Buffy.


There's a large part of me, the soft, Spuffy part, that agrees with this. To be absolutely honest, I'd thought she was in love with him in S6. And I saw her do a lot of things in S7 that consistently supported that. But...

Given that reading, Buffy-in-love, even figuring in their horrible history and "Seeing Red" et al, I couldn't explain why she never said as much to him in the lead-up to the end. In "Touched," in "End of Days," she listens to a couple of the most heartbreaking speeches ever from him and just lets them go with the barest of comments. Then we have that confusing scene with Angel, then she's back with Spike, acting like she cares.

So while I can do the work myself to wrench this into a shape I can live with (she loves him but doesn't necessarily want to settle down with him, etc., as per above), I resent that I have to, that it wasn't explicitly spelled out for me, what she feels. Buffy's reactions in those last three episodes seemed to be more about setting up the plot arc for Spike, to establish that he's willing to die for this woman whether she loves him or not.

...and from his perspective, it really does look like not. She passes up moment after moment when she could have come clean and told him her feelings, whatever they were, and lets it go, all during a point in time where any of them could die the next day, the next moment. Spike lives through those days without holding back - he says what he feels and he stays on the track he set himself on in getting the soul and coming back to Buffy to make his amends.

Buffy, on the other hand, holds back. On the edge of the end, she doesn't say anything, doesn't share this feeling with him, even though it was him telling her such things in "Touched" that gave her the strength to go on. She doesn't share that strength - she asks him to go forward with nothing, alone, to be strong in ways that she herself can't be. She wants to be "just a girl"; she asks him to be superhuman.

So that moment of goodbye that they share, in "Chosen"... it's heartbreaking to me because even if they seem together, as one, for that instant, with the flaring of fire and two souls meeting... they're really still so far apart. Buffy in that moment saying "I love you" and meaning it and thinking this is the perfect time and thing to say for their final goodbye... and him with that sad smile that says everything to me about what she doesn't understand.

Because in that moment we are seeing Spike, dying, for love... and for him love has been all about living, something that you do every day, with and for the one you love - it is life. But for Buffy, apparently, love is something you put off until some future time when you are ready for it, when you're fully baked and feel like accepting or giving it - it's a present. When she's "done" someone will "enjoy" her. So we have this man that's been in her life for years, who actually had it right in "Wrecked" when he told her he was already in her life - although somehow that was pitched to be a bad thing - and who she's kept at arm's length until the very moment of his death to say so, and we're told that she, Buffy, never had it backwards about what love is or isn't. It breaks my heart, and I can't be happy with Buffy in that moment, because when she finally says it, it's like she's giving him a present, a going-away gift. He's been telling her he loves her for years, and showing her with actions that have literally on occasion turned him inside out, and what she gives him in return is this - a statement that he has to struggle against all logic to believe. I would have much rather heard her say something in that moment that felt real to them both, that had no doubts attached to it, that would have felt right - "you were my best friend" or "I forgive you."

And I'm actually fucking tearing up writing this. God, I really am in a melancholy mood.

What got me, ulitmately, about the Buffy/Spike story, is that it ended up being one about despair. It wasn't about life-affirming nature of love - how could it be, when Buffy rejects love constantly with the idea that somehow this makes her a stronger fighter? It wasn't even about how how love can make you a better person - although that message is indeed in there, with Spike's remaking of himself, although he was required to turn into Jesus Christ before this was even faintly acknowledged. We see Buffy deny Spike's definition of real love as something "wild and passionate and dangerous," and yet the only times she sees fit to reward him for his love for her are in the aftermath of these sorts of moments, when he does something huge and painful and passionate for her, when he's broken and falling apart and dying. Then she can say it. Then we can see it in her eyes.

But for the guy who was willing to babysit her sister, fight alongside her every day, put up with her friends that he doesn't like, abide by her rules if she ever bothered to set them? She hasn't got a word for that man. That's the one she leaves waiting in her basement for when such time she deigns to visit, that she can forget about when she chooses to flirt around with others (whilst giving him the steely-eyed glare at the faintest suggestion him doing the same). She doesn't want to hear about how he could change for her, even while she insists that he does, that he go against his very nature constantly. She manages to be disappointed in him no matter what he does - act like a demon, act like a man, be good to her, be bad to her. She never figures out for herself what she does want from him, only punishes him for not being it, whatever it was.

I objected to that. I objected to the story of Buffy/Spike being one of hopeless surrender - that the only way he could prove his love for her was real was to give up every last thing about himself, do exactly as she told him, become a tame animal that jumped at her command. To Buffy, perhaps, this looked like love because it fit her life perfectly - he was there when she needed him, and didn't bother her when she didn't - but I think to every other human being in the world, it looked like what Buffy essentially wanted was a subservient wife, a First Lady, a "mission's boyfriend" that had no demands of his own. This is ultimately what broke up her relationship with Riley, her unwillingness to share the burdens and let him be part of her whole life (sue me, I'm one of those people who actually liked the Riley arc). In "As You Were," we saw Riley's "perfect" relationship as a team of equals. Buffy, we never saw reach for anything like that, although she surely could have. Because Spike was, or could have been, her equal - her adversary and opposite who'd changed from wanting to kill her to wanting to love her. There could have been a story there of how love transforms you and lifts you up, helps you see into places that used to be dark, but it ended up being being how-to manual on crushing spirits. Hers, because she couldn't quite figure out how to treat this one unusual vampire like a human being, his because that was his path, to be her sacrificial animal.

So even if she loved him the whole time, and there is a part of me that sort of believes that she did, I still can't take much comfort. She refused to share it, refused to give as well as receive. We saw him give to her, give everything, give the whole world for her, and whether she loved him or not had by that point become really irrelevant. We were given an ending in which Spike understood love and what it meant - giving to others - and Buffy sure as hell didn't.

God, I'm sad now. Pardon me while I go cry.

Comments

[azdak.livejournal.com]

I came to believe, through watching the show, that what was going on between them was a sort of love, and I've always come down on the side of wanting to see people happy.

I agree with you about the love, but I fear you're on a hiding to nothing wanting to see people in happy relationships in the Jossverse ;-)

Giles has this line in S2, about forgivess being not about what people deserve but what they need, and she could have given him that, at any moment

See, I always felt she gave him that in Sleeper/NLM> those two episodes are a crucial turning point in their relationship she's so worried about him in Sleeper, chasing him all over town (and the bouncer is convinced she's looking for her boyfriend, who's a 'player', only what he's done is so much worse than that and she's there for him when he realises it fully). And she really does give him a huge chance when she doesn't stake him in the basement, on what is really very slender evidence indeed. And then in NLM she's so gentle with him (after kicking him in the head, admittedly), and she tells him she believes in him (which right then I think he needed to hear much more than he needed to hear that she loved him). And she says this after he's listed all the things he can to convince her that he isn't worth saving. For me, that was forgiveness, and not just abstract, theoretical forgiveness, because he needed it, but because she really had forgiven him.

I just wanted to see something heartfelt and real.
This reminds me of Harmony talking to Wes: 'The girl of your dreams loved you. That's more than most people get.'

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the love, but I fear you're on a hiding to nothing wanting to see people in happy relationships in the Jossverse ;-)

Yes, I know. Sigh. But it didn't used to be that way, not in the early seasons. There was at least this concept that pain wasn't just there for its own sake, and people at least strived for happiness. Now, it's like they've given up - the creators have given up. It's just all the-world-is-pain and how-can-we-go-on? In their universe, I really dunno why anyone would, if that's all that's on offer. That's what I object to - a worldview that's become so negative that life itself seems pointless, where helping or loving others is this giant burden, and there is no pleasure in friendships, day to day simple camraderie, small achievements.

So I'm having a hard time enjoying myself in the Jossverse lately, as I'm sure you can understand. It's become this place where any pleasure is rewarded with punishment. Sometimes I can't believe that Joss isn't fundamentalist religious, because sometimes it sure seems that way.

For me, that was forgiveness, and not just abstract, theoretical forgiveness, because he needed it, but because she really had forgiven him.

I think that's what the creators thought we were meant to think, but I didn't make that leap all the way, and it seemed like Spike the character didn't either - why should he assume she's forgiven him completely if she hasn't said so? The AR was, let's not forget, the last time he assumed something about what she felt, so I think for the sake of story clarity that needed to be spelled out much more clearly before any of us either inside or outside the show could consider that chapter fully closed. (I also felt the same way about Willow - all we got was that one scene in "Same Time, Same Place," and now everything's peachy again? Huh? I think the staff underestimated the public need for explicit statements on these issues, which - attempted rape and murder - were not small beans.)

The girl of your dreams loved you. That's more than most people get.

Yes, it is. Which is why, I think, seeing love treated as something destructive, that people should be punished for, bothers me. I'm funny in feeling that it's something of value, not just a setup for tears. I hated that last bit of Wes/Fred, how it was somehow okay to fast-forward through the happy part as the unimportant buildup to the tragedy. That's the sort of thing that makes me wonder why anyone would bother with love at all, if we're shown only the pain and none of the appeal. Gah...

[azdak.livejournal.com]

Now, it's like they've given up - the creators have given up. It's just all the-world-is-pain and how-can-we-go-on?

There's definitely an element of truth in that, although I see it more as a function of the overwehlming situation they were faced with in S7 rather than an inherent negativity about life itself. Part of the problem with S7 is that the First is talked up to be a much more powerful evil than it is actually is (both because the storytelling is definitely - how shall I put this? - uneven when it comes to the First, and because that seems to be the ultimate point of the First, not to be half as terrible as everyone thought once they stood up to it. I don't need to complain about all the opportunities for psycho-terror that the First missed out on, because plenty of other people have already done that, and Joss himself has admitted that the Turok-Han were all big build-up but no real substance). Now, if the First had been more convincing as the worst enemy Buffy's ever faced, all the emotional freezing over, all the constant nagging of everyone else, would have seemed much more like a response to a temporary situation than a form of character development. It's not just the fact that the First becomes increasingly ineffectual that undermines the atmosphere of terror that should pervade Buffy's war effort, it's also that the heroes really don't seem equipped to fight this thing, if it's really as powerful as everyone says. When characters are talking about all-out war and how serious this all is, and then we cut to the 'army' and it consists of about 15 people, then it doesn't make me think 'Gosh, they're brave', but 'Can't be as bad as all that.' Or when Giles says how they need more people on their side (yup, like ideally several hundred) and Buffy pipes up 'That's why we've got to find Spike.' Um, yes. Because one vampire is going to make such a difference, right? Similarly Buffy's 'everybody sucks but me speech' comes over so badly because at that point it's unjustified - we needed to have seen Willow fail to help out when she could have done, to have seen Spike wimping out of fights. Get It Done could have been a genuinely powerful episode like LMPTM, where the audience is confronted with a tough dilemma in which they sympathise with all the characters, but as it is it takes a lot of thought to understand where Buffy's coming from and why she's actually right. I honestly do think that the negativity in S7 is a product of Buffy's situation, but because it's precisely the areas of the scripts that deal with plot that are worst handled, the situation simply doesn't seem threatening enough, and so the negativity seems to be a response to the universal human condition rather a specific but temporary threat.

I think that's what the creators thought we were meant to think, but I didn't make that leap all the way, it seemed like Spike the character didn't either - why should he assume she's forgiven him completely if she hasn't said so?

We'll just have to chalk this up to different tastes. I was entirely happy with Buffy's statement that she believed in him, and I would have been wary of an explicit statment on a subject that
both found difficult to talk about ('Can't say I'm sorry, can't say forgive me'). I don't think Spike ever forgave himself for the AR, butI do think that in NLM Buffy told him that she understood he'd become a different person, one she trusted and had faith in. If she had added an explicit 'I forgive you,' it would have made me cringe with embarrassment (that's Brits for you, though - that sort of thing makes a lot of us uncomfortable;-))

To be continued in next comment...

[azdak.livejournal.com]

seeing love treated as something destructive, that people should be punished for, bothers me

But love does make you vulnerable. If you live in a dangerous world of monsters and demons, or just the emotional minefield of daily life, it's losing the people you love that hurts most. I don't think that love in the Buffyverse is generically destructive. It wasn't loving Tara that pushed Willow over the edge, it was losing her, and she wasn't being punished for loving her, she was the victim of a random act of violence. S6 Spuffy was destructive, in a fascinatingly awful way, but it wasn't purely destructive. It provided Buffy with something she desperately needed at that point in her life, and it gave Spike something too. The AR didn't feel like a punishment imposed by some deus ex machina, but (for me, at least) arose organically out of the relationship we'd seen. Wes/Fred I can't really argue with, though, because I did think it was cheap to bring them together solely for the purpose of heightening Wes's angst. And I guess Oz would support yout thesis as well, since in the end it was loving Willow that made it impossible for him to defeat his 'beast'.

That's the sort of thing that makes me wonder why anyone would bother with love at all

Hormones! We don't have much choice in the matter, I guess.

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

See, I always felt she gave him that in Sleeper/NLM> those two episodes are a crucial turning point in their relationship

Okay, I can buy that - looking again at her speech in Never Leave Me, I can see how it's meant to play as Buffy's official forgiveness of Spike, even though it didn't convince this viewer at the time. But what's your take on their relationship after that? Even a year later, I'm not sure what I was supposed to be taking away from their weird interactions in the second half of the season. Any insights would be much appreciated...

[azdak.livejournal.com]

But what's your take on their relationship after that?

I'm afraid you've got me there - because answering that would entail rewatching the last five episodes, and they're the ones that are both tedious and come close to scuppering all the good stuff the season had managed to build up. Before those episodes - well, they share that moment when she rescues him from the First, and thereafter it's pretty much closeness and trust all the way up to LMPTM, bar Buffy's date with Principal Wood and the 'everybody sucks but me' speech. I guess the date with Wood makes sense if Buffy is at this stage not keen that her changed relationship with Spike should include reverting to a sexual relationship (the fact that other people, like the potentials and Andrew, comment on the erotic attraction between them, seems fair enough, given that it clearly is there, whatever their history, but it takes Buffy a long time to come to terms with it - and depending on how you read the 'fade to black' scene, maybe she never does). Thinking about it, I guess the word that best describes how Buffy feels about Spike from NLM through LMPTM is 'protective'(she's concerned about his cracked ribs, she looks after him when the chip goes wonky, she defies Giles to unchain him). She desperately wants him to get where he's going, to become the man she believes he can be (the 'everybody sucks but me speech' is the glaring exception, but she clearly had other priorities right then). In Touched he finally gets an opportunity to repay her faith in him by telling her about his faith in her, and that belief restores her own self-belief and leads to her first concrete victory. At this point their relationship is finally starting to get a bit more equal, with Spike at last able to give something back. As for why Buffy does that thing about saying 'Does it have to mean anything?' after their night together, I would chalk it up to fear of commitment. She never has loved Spike as much as he loves her, and it's always given her the upper hand, but now they suddenly seem to have reached a place where she's teetering on the brink of really loving him back. I think she pulls back because she doesn't know if she wants to make that step.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I think we're actually in agreement on a lot of points. Buffy did consistently protect Spike and behave in a generally affectionate manner post-rescue. So you could say that she'd resolved her own feelings to that extent, that she wasn't "ready for him to not be there" in her life. My problem just came down to the way the later episodes played the constant card of Is She Over Him or Is There Hope For These Two Crazy Kids, especially once varibles like Wood and Faith were added in. She goes out on her date because she thinks Wood would be "good fo her" - look, she's trying to move on - but when Faith shows up, it's all steely glares and How Dare You Flirt With My Man? I can tell myself that Buffy really cared for him, but I can't remove the bad taste Buffy's back-and-forth behaviour left in my mouth. It's clear that he didn't feel he could make any demands on her, and made his offer to leave in "First Date," but Buffy still wants him around. She avoids saying why to protect her own feelings, which is nice for her - hey, they're both worried about Buffy's feelings.

I dunno... haven't got much else. I'm glad you managed to get more out of S7 than I did on the relationship front, maybe from watching it all at once without the intermiable waiting between episodes we got here, but I couldn't be comfortable with Buffy's character after a certain point. I tried hard, but I really couldn't. Not when we're given Spike's own example as a counterpoint, of love being about forgetting your own damn feelings and being there for someone who needs you.

[azdak.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to have taken so long to reply to this, but one of those periodic doses of real life temporarily overwhelmed me.

I couldn't be comfortable with Buffy's character after a certain point.

I have the advantage of you here, because I've never really liked Buffy very much, so I'm used to having to adopt an attitude of analytic detachment when considering her motivations. In S7 at least she had the excuse that she was in over her head (and even with the really difficult to justify outburts of unpleasantness, I still prefer General Buffy to Prom Queen Buffy). I agree that she was kind of on-again off-again about Spike in the latter part of the season (though in fairness to her, the Faith incident is quite a while after the Wood incident and she's grown closer to Spike throughout that time), but it didn't really seem out of character, given their history and given the ambivalence she's always felt towards him.

I'm glad you managed to get more out of S7 than I did on the relationship front, maybe from watching it all at once without the intermiable waiting between episodes we got here

It might be that. I think another reason why I feel so differently about S7 than most people is because, apart from earshot (years ago!) and OMWF, it was the season I started with. It meant that I didn't come to it with any baggage in terms of expectations of what the characters should be like (it also meant that for me souled Spike was the default version of the character, and the previous seasons provided the story of how he got to that point - seen from that perspective, it's an impressively convincing journey).

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

It might be that. I think another reason why I feel so differently about S7 than most people is because, apart from earshot (years ago!) and OMWF, it was the season I started with.

Ah. That does make more sense, then. I'd started watching in Season 2, and as a developmental curve for the character as presented then, someone who was deeply caring and not without flaws but thoughtful and willing to examine herself and her life and make adjustments, how she ended up in S7 was pretty disappointing. It seemed to me like a confirmation of this whole "life sucks" trip the Whedonverse has been on recently, that life is just going to grind you down as you get older, remove all the light and joy from your life, and the best you can hope for is to grimly hang on.

So yeah, I think the perspective thing is the only real difference in our viewpoints. I can see my way clear to everything you've said, but I can't shake that disappointment in her from the impression I'd formed in the earlier years.

[azdak.livejournal.com]

I think our viewpoints are basically very similar - but then I have the advantage of having read all your episode reviews on Just Stake Me, so I have a fairly clear idea of your take on things! And I concede that if I'd ever felt invested in Buffy as a character then I'd probably have felt sad that she ended up in such a lonely, selfish place.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Aha! So you've seen my fits and starts and scratching my head and beginnings of theories, then. I'd approached S7 thinking, "well, surely the point of this season is to resolve all that bad stuff from S6 and make the characters grow into strong adults who are all about supporting each other and mutual respect, blah, blah, blah." Boy, was I wrong. The only arc that paid off in that regard was Spike's. Everyone else, to my eyes, wimped out in one fashion or another. Oh, except for Anya. And she died. Thus the rage.

Also, my personal philosophy was there to keep telling me that after everything Buffy's been through, I wanted to see her be a super badass motherfucker, who could handle damn near anything, 'cause she's pretty much seen it all by now. I guess it's in character that she'd crumble under the weight - like she did in "Weight of the World" - but then we had the likes of "Touched" there to remind us that the main reason for her collapsing was her entire I'm-the-only-one-who-can-do-this mindset, and her refusal to let anyone help her shoulder the load. I would have been so much happier if the second half of the season revolved around her and Spike working as a team of friends rather than, as Toys put it somewhere in this post, working out her romantic feelings when "Seeing Red" pretty much seemed to have removed that option (as per Joss's commentary, that I'd begun complaining about).

Thanks for all this lengthy back-and-forth, by the way. It's soothing to me. : )

[azdak.livejournal.com]

Oh, I really enjoy a good discussion, so the pleasure is as much mine as yours, it's just that I don't usually have time for prolonged debate. At the moment it's the Easter vac, and though an infuriating amount of that has been eaten away by extra classes and such like term-time stuff, I've still got way more computer time than usual. So if I suddenly disappear halfway through next week, it's not because of anything you said, it's just that I'm back to having no time.

I would have been so much happier if the second half of the season revolved around her and Spike working as a team of friends rather than, as Toys put it somewhere in this post, working out her romantic feelings when "Seeing Red" pretty much seemed to have removed that option

SR is an episode that was really affected by my habit of watching the series backwards. I put off seeing it for ages (it was one of the last episodes of S5 and 6 that I saw) because I hated the idea of seeing Buffy made vulnerable to a sexual attack in the way that ordinary women are. I knew it had happened, of course, I just didn't want to have to watch it. Then when I did see it it turned not to be quite what I'd expected - horrible and humiliating for Buffy, yes, but I never felt she was really in danger, and sure enough once she got over the shock all it took was one good kick to put her back in charge. Just what I'd like to be able to do if a bloke ever jumps me. What really struck me, though, is that afterwards she doesn't say 'This is proof that you're a monster' or 'If I see you again, I'll stake you on sight.' Instead she says 'Ask me again why I can never love you.' She views the rape attempt in terms of their relationship - 'Because you're this kind of person, I can never love you, I can never trust you', not 'You have done something unforgiveable which shows you are irredeemably evil.' What I'm trying to say is that I unlike Joss I don't see SR as something that excludes the possibility of any romantic relationship between the two of them ever again. It isn't real life, after all - Buffy's a Slayer, not a victim of male violence, and she's more than capable of taking care of herself. Spike isn't a human claiming to have reformed, he's a vampire who's got his soul back, the difference between his pre and post-souled selves is vast and it's reliable. So it doesn't bother me that the person most changed by the AR is Spike and not Buffy, because Buffy, thank God, although shaken by the event, no more experiences the full horror of rape than she experiences what it's like to be violently beaten. So unlike Joss I don't see SR as an insuperable obstacle to a resumption of sexual relations, though I agree that it had to be a long and thorny path before it became possible. Given that the sexual attraction between Buffy and Spike was so powerful that it overwhelmed both of them in defiance of their nature (Spike was evil, Buffy was in the front line of the forces of good, both thought of their attraction - at least initially, in Spike's case - as wrong, but succumbed to it nonetheless)I think it's more convincing that that attraction persists, and makes itself felt, even after Spike has done something that 'ought' to make Buffy not desire him any more. I can't really imagine them ever being 'just good friends' and the series needed to deal with that.